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Poster: Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer Date: Oct 21, 2011 6:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Too faithful fan base

Garcia once said ( and others as well ) that Many deadheads Thought every show and every song the band ever played was great. They would literaly cheer anything.

And I admit that your first 20 or so shows everything does sound good and hearing some of your favorites for the first time live is always a thrill.

Beyond that, I see a lot of this discussion on show reviews. People over biased to shows they attend and others saying just because you were there doesn't make it a 5.

So, I know there is subjectivity on what people like. But what is it that makes a lot of people so faithful to the ones they attend? Beyond the fond memories and good times, I've seen people just raving about shows that suck. Maybe the old " take away the drugs From a head " joke is true?

Sometimes I hear a lot of this here - especially about Further and some of the other nostalgia acts out there.

like to hear some of your observations and experiences.

At least I know Cliff isn't in this camp as he always talks sh*t on a lot of shows he attended. Notice how he always get flax for it......

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Poster: reviewr Date: Oct 21, 2011 8:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

I wish people would be more critical/objective with their reviews, but it's hard! It's not all great. When there is so much to choose from, what should one listen to?

I chose my log-in name because I wanted to try to help with this problem. I find that the more I learn, the less I know and end up reviewing very few shows.

There are some shows we all agree are great (5/2/70, 8/27/72, etc.), but personal bias does play a big part. For me 6/22/73, 7/17/76, 8/28/81 and 10/14/94 are great shows, but you don't read much about them.

How do you rate a '72 show? Compare it to other '72s, or compare it to their whole catalogue?

I thank Dick for showing me 10/31/71 - a hidden gem.

Edit: For me context is so very important. I don't think anyone will call the 7/13/84 Dark Star the best ever, but a DS encore ?!? How cool is that? Especially in '84. So, how do you review/rate that?

This post was modified by reviewr on 2011-10-22 03:50:36

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Oct 21, 2011 7:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

there are shows i attended and which i have never even bothered to sample here at the archive; i enjoyed most of the shows i went to (by no means every one), but not one holds a candle to what went down in '68-'72ish, and that's where i spend my time because life is short and why throw it away on mediocrity?

i'm amused by people posting that folks just like the era that they were going to shows, but if you read these forums for any length of time you'd see that that's just not true

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 22, 2011 12:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

It doesn't seem true of the forum; dunno if it's true of reviewers in general. Good question. DO people have a preference for their own era? Not just on the forum (where I don't think it holds true), but in general? How did your own era form your taste, or not?

Maybe I'm unusual in not feeling like I can really judge the shows I went to either way. I know I have "attendance bias," and I'm happy to leave it at that. It was a huge kick at first to find shows I remember on the archives. ("Wait! There's that Wharf Rat I remember! Geez, so THAT was the date! It really happened!") But I honestly can't really listen to my own shows with quite the same ears that I can listen in general. So I won't say "five star" or "three star" or any star ... they just are :-)

I appreciate memories from reviewers because that's how I'm wired; I love getting a better picture of the history and sociology of the times. But of course, in terms of what's useful for actually LISTENING, well ... if I read someone's recollections, and that's the focus of their review, it's great but I tend to ignore whether they say "five stars."

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Oct 22, 2011 7:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

regarding the reviews of the shows here at the archive (which my post above did not answer), i generally will scan for reviewers names i recognize, and largely people from here at the forum, because i am interested in what the people here have to say -- because i can connect the 'review' to the persona that has evolved over the years

as far as reviews that stray outside comments on the music, i don't mind really, provided that they at least are intelligible comments and perhaps even provide a strain of the poetic; as you more than most understand, setting and tone is often the key to keeping the reader interested ... well, perhaps i overstate that in terms of a show 'review' but if one is going to comment on the music only, at least use effective descriptors, such as that employed by cliff hucker or that new kid in town, rdeniro, both of whom make you say, damn, i gotta listen to that right now!

the idiot reviews, who cares, it's like stepping over dog shit on the sidewalk

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 22, 2011 7:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

>DO people have a preference for their own era?

I would be in the definitely not camp. I'll call my era '87-90, though I saw them several times after '90. That's a GD sound I like more than your average non late-eighties, no shows, I'm sure. But, there are maybe five shows in that whole time period that were All-Timers. I was bemused when Arb mentioned not listening to shows that he attended. I am the same way, but it isn't a plan. I just know it's a crappy show from actually being there. I mean '87 & '88 you can go through in a New York minute. It's certain years or songs/jams I listen to. Just going by, times played, for years it's '68 (by far), '69, '72, '73, '76, '79 (fall), '80, and '90. Only one year in there from my 'era'.

btw- I hope I just didn't make a grammar boo boo. I think it only applies if you make the decades possessive.

And I just can't stop listening to 10-12-68. It is perfect.

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Poster: questionoflife Date: Oct 23, 2011 7:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

Amen about 10-12-68! Whoever suggested that show the other day was right on the money - I can't stop listening either! As a listener who tends to categorize Dead eras and sounds in terms of keyboardists, it was mindblowing to hear their sound stripped of all keyboards. And the sound quality! When I put on my headphones, I feel like I'm in the room and my brain starts melting (and it feels like those percussion instruments in "Dark Star" are scratching some nook or cranny inside my skull).

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 22, 2011 8:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

Yes, you've just abbreviated them, and that has become common usage...it denotes that you are leaving out the "19".

BTW, don't ever say I mentioned it, but some have come to regard "1960's" as a matter of stylistic preference...yikes!

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Poster: gratefuldiver Date: Oct 21, 2011 11:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

Sure, I enjoyed most shows that I saw in the late 80s and even some in the early 90s. A few, such as my first Scarlet > Fire, the Dark Star sandwich on Bobby's birthday in 90, or the Sugaree the night before NYE in Oakland 89 were fantastic experiences. But I rarely listen to shows from that era. I know that I'm a heretic for liking DSO more than Further. But in the late 80s, I generally enjoyed shows by the local Dead-cover band better than than the 'real thing'. In that era, the Dead were cashing in for their efforts 10 and 20 years previously. DSO and that local cover band I mentioned had to earn their audience *every* night.

I'm prepared for the sh*tstorm that such an opinion will generate...

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Poster: clashcity Date: Oct 22, 2011 12:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

We might the few, but I'm with you...

I'd take DSO over Furthur anyday.

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Poster: gratefuldiver Date: Oct 22, 2011 1:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

Few indeed. But congrats for embracing the truth! Last time i posted anyting like this, I was ridiculued.

10 years ago, with Jerry, the band was barely hanging on. Now it's a bit pathetic...like a Lynard Skynard or GREG Allman "Brothers" reunion tour.

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Poster: clashcity Date: Oct 22, 2011 4:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

I went to an "Allman Brothers" show once... my only recommendation is bring a pillow.

What a snooze fest that was.

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Poster: adks12020 Date: Oct 24, 2011 12:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

There are most definitely people that think anything the Grateful Dead played was amazing. I am definitely not in that camp. You don't have to be a Grateful Dead scholar to notice when they were off...some shows are pretty much unlistenable in the mid 80s and late 90s.

Personally I think it's pretty easy to be listening to a lackluster show and think "wow, this is total crap" and I'm always surprised that people who have listened to, or seen, the Dead often can't, or won't, notice the difference.

Unfortunately I'm not old enough to have seen the dead in their prime but I feel the same way about bands I see now that I absolutely love. If I go to a show and the playing isn't on point I definitely notice. Do I let it ruin my good time? No, I generally don't unless its a total trainwreck because someone is too wasted or something. I enjoy the good parts and deal with the rest but I've definitely walked out of shows saying "damn, they were so off tonight...but there were a few good tunes"

Basically, the Grateful Dead are my favorite band, despite my age, but everyone that listens to them a lot has to know that sometimes the playing sucked and that doesn't take anything away from their legacy or their talent. Shit happens when you party too much....like sloppy playing and terrible setlist choices. If some fans want to ignore that, that's their decision, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Oct 24, 2011 2:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

if they didn't suck sometimes, it would mean that they weren't pushing the envelope. when you experiment like they did, it's just not possible to sound great all the time.

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Poster: adks12020 Date: Oct 24, 2011 4:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

no argument here...that's part of the improvising game..but you have to admit that sometimes it had nothing to do with pushing the envelope and a lot to do with being burned out or high as hell

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Oct 24, 2011 4:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

"but you have to admit that sometimes it had nothing to do with pushing the envelope and a lot to do with being burned out or high as hell"

absolutely. unfortunately, that can be said about a significant part of the music after 1977. jerry still flourished with his side projects, but he clearly wasn't as focused on the grateful dead as he was the first 10 years. a bad day for jerry, meant a bad day for the whole band. and as his addiction worsened, those days became more frequent.

This post was modified by rdenirojb87 on 2011-10-24 23:40:09

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Poster: clashcity Date: Oct 21, 2011 8:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

When this topic comes up I always think of the 3/19/95 show when they played Unbroken Chain.

I reckon I'm somewhat of a young'n compared to some folks who frequent here. Unlike some of my friends (who were older than me) I missed out on the 89-90-91 shows that they got to attend.

Anyhow - Standing there in the Spectrum and the collective realization of what it was we were all hearing was quite a thrill. Euphoric even.

Looking back and listening to it from the comfort of my easy chair the experience is quite a bit different.

Hell, even after the effects of "The First Ever Unbroken Chain" wore off during the dismal 2nd set of that show my thought turned to "Now why the hell didn't they do that when they were capable of pulling it off."

Not sure exactly my point after all of that... but I think it cuts many ways.

I always thought I saw crap shows because it wasn't Fillmore West 1969, Europe 72 or anytime 73/74. Some folks don't see it that way. Good for them I suppose.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 21, 2011 9:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base; whine first, care later

74-82; I've said it so often, but the more I think about it, the more bizarre it is that it took me so long to come out of the closet. At the time, I always kept it to myself that they didn't sound like the late 60s, very early 70s band I had loved for yrs as a kid...I knew they were getting older, but still--I'd put so much energy into promoting them to all my friends and relatives, I really never articulated to anyone, til here really, how much I felt something was missing at those shows. I still defended them, any and all comers, but by the mid 80s I stopped talking about them, listened to old albums and largely let it go...

It's only the past five yrs I really came to understand how much I missed, and how much more I liked the early era...and now all I do is irritate folks by bringing it up, but hey, you got to have something you care enough to whine about incessantly or else why bother getting up in the morning, ya know?

Or is it why bother logging on in the morning? I can never remember which...

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Poster: pequastogy Date: Oct 22, 2011 8:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base; whine first, care later

I think we are talking about two very different points of view here and they are mutually exclusive.
I think good shows can only be judged by first hand personal experience. If you went to a show and 10-20 thousand heads were energized by the band and the band by them, you left after the encore saying that was a good show, 60's,70's,80's 90's whenever. You can't tell me then nor now that it wasn't a good show by listening to it on the archive. You could of gone and had a different experience than I did, I'd agree to disagree.

Second, whether you like a particular era better than another again is your own personal point of view based on what you've seen, what styles the band played, what songs they played, what type of music you are attracted to etc.

Please stop telling me when the band was at their peak because of what they had, who they had, how they played etc....guess what, we're all logging in for one reason:we were attracted to the music at some point of our lives and can't get it out of our heads.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 22, 2011 2:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base; whine first, care later

Wrong person--I've never told anyone they shouldn't enjoy whatever they want to.

It may seem I imply that, but that's your take; it may seem I give people a hard time for liking X or Y or Z, but that's no more than the usual: many of us "know" we are "right" about one thing or another, and thus I can say "Jack Bruce is a better bass player than so and so", OR I can say "the DEAD were better at time X" and support it with various facts, interpretations, etc., etc.

But you can always say "in spite of that truth, I LIKE time Y" and you have ever right to...just like I have the right to say "you can't say they were better, but you can certainly say you LIKE the sound".

Right?

Right.

You can also say/think "Tell is one patronizing, arrogant SOB, and is completely wrong in his overly analytical logical positivist, absolutist snobbery!" and you'd be joining one ever-expanding club, I'd wager.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 22, 2011 3:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base; whine first, care later

> ...in his overly analytical logical positivist, absolutist snobbery!" and you'd be joining one ever-expanding club ...

Aw, crap. Positivist? Can I still be in the club? Please. Cherry on top. I have no other forum to go to.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 22, 2011 6:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base; whine first, care later

Gotta leave your Kant at the door though, eh?

;)

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Poster: Jacky Hughes Date: Oct 23, 2011 1:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base; whine first, care later

Just for you Tell;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAqNhbFbUSs

high flow: this is the real deal ska. Urban myth has it that the genre it got it's name because the Jamaican session players described the feel as "The one that goes boom ska, boom ska". Anyhow, Prince Buster was one of the originals.

This post was modified by Jacky Hughes on 2011-10-23 20:09:26

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 23, 2011 7:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base; whine first, care later

Always good to start the day w/ a laugh.

Portia:
Tarry a little, there is something else.
This bond doth give thee here no jot of blood;
The words expressly are "a pound of flesh."

-The Merchant Of Venice

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 21, 2011 9:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base; even unfaithful ones?

WTF? I didn't get even a mention by JOTS?

;)

Like Arb, I've only sampled the 75 shows here that I attended, cause as JOTS notes, I did enjoy myself at those, even though as I've described, they didn't come thru for me as much as I hoped as a result of my unrealistic expectations (I literally expected 1971...seriously). I liked it, but it was different; I liked it a lot for the people and so on, blah, blah, blah.

But, no, I've never listened to ANY shows of 76, 77, 78 or other yrs, many of which are here. Just not interested, for all the reasons I've described.

So, my reviews would be "where's the energy? where's the banter? where's screaming Jerry of the 12-29-68 OOne we spoke of?" and the response is "77 is the refined, musical improvement version of the DEAD" or whatever your take on the change, but it does nothing for me, even if I would NEVER say "I want my money back"--of course not. Wouldn't have missed it for the world.

I had to go, it WAS my religion back then...how could I've not gone to see the band I told EVERYONE was better than ANY band around for crying outloud?

But yes, a small part of me was disappointed they had changed...at that time, long before I got here.

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Poster: leftwinger57 Date: Oct 22, 2011 4:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

This kind of thing happens fairly offen now because I do think people actually do know what the difference between a good/great show is to a dog.My first post after saying hi was to point out when they're good they are the best at what they do but when they're bad they are fucking awful and there is not one person out there that can convince me otherwise.Look I've seen them 28 times from early 70s N.Y to the bay area and some points in between. I have walked out on maybe 2- shows because I just knew they were not going to get any better and I could catch a blues band in North Beach and have a better time. The slow show fanatics who say well it's the scene dude and make the best of it I say no they are a professional band that charges cash (how ever small it was)and a decent show is expected at all times.Yes the riggors of the road takes it's toll but I'm talking very local shows here that were just terrible. As it turned out I wasn't slammed for expressing this opinion of mine and I believe it was Will Tell who welcomed me w/ open arms and all knowing what Ive said is pretty much true.Me and Cliff I really don't know what happened there,I asked for a picture of the JGB playing on the ship Rainbow Warrior on the wharf and he did but with that came a rant about Greenpeace were a bunch of terrorists.All I said was that the French were testing atom bombs out in the Pacific and they decided that Greenpeace had to go so they sank the Rainbow Warrior w/ underwater bombs that did kill 2 shipmates. He's a professional fiherman why would you want any bomb testing in water anywhere?So that's my story I'm a fan of most all music and if I don't get a dose of the Dead so be it.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 21, 2011 7:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Too faithful fan base

Cliff gets crap for it not for giving a show a bad review I dont think, more for statements that he wishes he had every dime back even though he admits that at the time he had a great time. Or saying he wouldnt see the post Garcia stuff if they were playing free in his backyard. Hey thats how he feels so thats his experience. I dont get it but I dont have to.There are a lot of different ways to experience the Dead even the same show. The experience of being there in person with tge spontaniaty and all the live stir fried energy is a force that even the best show listening back on cd or whatever cant beat imo. Criticial objectiveness is easier when you compare later but even then there are some things people just wont ever agree on. Sometimes the songs that we hear are just songs of our own right? Having said that, if you think the 80's and 90's are better than the 70's youre just wrong! Likewise if you think the band had nothimg worthwhile after whatever year you draw a line at, imo youre just cheating yourself.

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